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Ok, I think that's enough. Now, I will say I haven't finished TQ yet, and I will, but I must rant first...

WHAT THE CRAP WAS UP WITH THE ALY/NAWAT LET'S GET JIGGY-WITH-IT SCENE?!?!?!

*breathes* Ok, I liked Nawat in the first book, now I think I hate the stupid little ex-bug eating poo-brain. He just turned out to be like other selfish-lusty-boar headed pea brained males who just want sex. HELLO! SHE SAID NO! SEVERAL TIMES! BUT YOU HAD TO GO TAKING HER FREAKIN' CLOTHES OFF AND GIVE HER A CUTE LITTLE CHARM SO WE CAN BE ALL "OH, SEE, NOW YOU WON'T GET PREGNANT AND YOU GET TO HAVE SEX WITH ME CUZ I'M A "M-A-N" NOW AND I WANT YOU TOO! *kicks Nawat out of TQ and beats him over the head for making Puppet angry at what was a perfectly fantastic book till he showed up* *wallops Aly over the head for being stupid enough to believe Nawat, when she should have been with Taybur* *hugs Tammy, because she still loves her, even if she did create Nawat*
Is there anyone out there who is as angry/annoyed as I am?

Now I'll shut-up, maybe...

Edit: In my wrath I left off half of the P's in spoilers

Edit 2: Still more P's

Edit 3: *re-reads rant and blinks* Mithros, I didn't know I was that vicious... Anyway, I'm posting this because I'm feeling a little silly at what I ranted above. Now that I've thought for two and a half hours, and my temper has gone and I am able to both think clear (something I never do when angry, ever), I must admit I was unfair to poor little Nawat. Something in his manner set me off (I can't even remember what it was, which is sad when you think about it) and I flew off on a crowman-hunt. I hate it when I'm hormonal, it ruins my day.

"If you don't stand for something, you will fall for everything." ~ unknown

I don't think this will help btu I HATED him and his little I'm-an-idiot-crow-and-don't-know-anything thing. But in TQ, he's a MAN. He GETS stuff. I LOVE him now.

::scratching head in much consternation for her beloved crow-man::

I guess he's one of those characters people love or hate . . . I liked him in the first book, when he was more very intelligent bird than man (they are ferociously smart birds), trying to make sense of both his new state and of the odd creature he had bonded with in terms of a mate, and I liked him when he made the hero's journey in the second book, using what he had as a crow to find his place in the revolution, but also to grow more into his man skin--to become a man.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough about what Nawat has been doing all the time he's been away. He has been on the move--fighting, rescuing, watching his warriors get hurt, die, train, move with him, grabbing kids and women and men from burning villages, having arrows pulled out of him and wounds sewn up, sick from bad food, sitting up late over maps and plans, meeting in the jungles with suspicious rebels, flying from place to place on little food on less sleep. In all that time and action and movement he's come to understand a few things. One of them is that if he lets Aly keep putting things off until the time is right, they may never happen, because one or both of them will probably die before this is all over. He's learned to grab the good stuff while he can, because he doesn't know if he'll always have it. He's also learned to read people, and he can see it's not that Aly's not interested; she's busy.

Do any of you think I'd write a good guy who overpowers a girl who objects? Do you think if Aly really objected, Nawat would have survived the encounter? Sometimes you have to grab the moment, because you might not get another, particularly when there's a war on.

And if I have to explain all this, I guess I didn't write it well, because it should have been clear in the book. You aren't the first to sound off on this, you see, IPD. My bad. I'll try and do better next time!

Tammy

“No person is your friend who demands your silence.”
Alice Walker

I think you did a great job, Tammy! My one complaint is that Nawat was gone for most of the book! *sniffs*
And can I just say, all of chapter 16 gave me MAJOR waterworks? Cos first there was all that horrible stuff with the storm and Dunevon and Elsren, and THAT made me cry. And then I was thinking "Okay. This would be a REALLY good time to bring Nawat back, cos I am definitely needing some comfort right now." And then he DID come back, and that made me start crying even harder, cos I'm just insane like that, if something makes me super happy, I start sobbing. Yeah, anyway, I'm done now. I LOVED IT!!!!!!

Currently reading: Wicked Lovely by Melissa Mar
Just finished: Still Life in Chocolate by Deborah Boyer

*laughs* IPD. Makes me sound like a pregnancy test or something.

Oh squiggles, how do I explain this. I think the best thing to say was that when I first read through that scene I misjudged Nawat. He just came off sounding sort of selfish to me, like sex was all he was after. I think that was what set me off. Then, when I looked back on it (after my awful temper had cooled) I realized that nothing had happened there that Aly hadn't already wanted. So, I think I've already made my peace with Nawat. But thank-you ever so much for taking the time to explain Tammy! You make me feel special! ^.^

"If you don't stand for something, you will fall for everything." ~ unknown

Like I said, Insane Puppet Dragon, , you're not the only one who made this criticism, even when not in the heat of temper!

Tammy

“No person is your friend who demands your silence.”
Alice Walker

I got it, if that counts for anything.

*shrug*

Later Days.
D.J.

| Dyslexic | LJ | Resident Jock |

  

*points up* What she said.

  

So did I. I think it was explained fine, Tammy! To me, at least, it was clear that they loved each other and that it would happen eventually if they both lived, but since neither of them was sure they would live, it made sense to do it now before they got themselves involved in potentially fatal battle.

Just Finished: Vacations From Hell by Libba Bray, etc.
Currently Reading: The Singing by Alison Croggon

Novel Count for 2010: 26

I got it too. And I was so GLAD that Nawat grew up. I thought he was kinda cute in TC, but at the beginning of TQ I really did want to kick him. And then he went away, and came back as an adult (which was how I interpreted the 'man' thing) and I thought he was rather sexy, as opposed to earlier when he was kinda asexual to my eyes. So I wasn't at all surprised that Aly was ready to jump his bones.

It was just that, as Tammy said, Nawat's growing-up all happened off-screen.

z

i got it. he was a cute sweetie in the first one, and i felt sorry for him at the beginning of this one because it was obvious he was having identity issues and Aly just expected him to do as he was told. after his adventure he became king of the tortall hotties. he was confident and sure of his place with aly and stopped following her around making googly eyes, and he grew a personality and understood humans.

"There'z a Place in France Where ze Naked Monkeyz Dance"

I got it too.
-Kel
"Save a horse, ride a cowboy." -"Big and Rich"

Yeah... @_@ Granted I was a little biased because I *loved* nawat to bits from the very beginning... Such smartness... But yeah, in the second book I was way overwhelmed by how cute they were once they got back- though I can see where the criticism comes from, if it looked like Nawat was all.. dead-set on having sex with her. o_o; It triggered some red flags at first but once I realized he had a point about them not having the guarantee of time.. GAH SO CUTE. o.o;;; and this isn't anything people haven't said already but just wanted to say it's valid either way...

we're anything brighter than even the sun - e. e. cummings

I never got the impression that Aly didn't want Nawat. before he left, she even SAID something to the effect of, things are too busy now, I don't want to have children in this world. When he returned, she said "I don't think this is the best time to do what you're thinking of doing" it's not that she didn't WANT to be with him, but that she didn't want distraction or children. Nawat has realized that you need to grab hold of the good things. And he told Aly that. She understood. But she still didn't want to have kids. Do you really think that she wouldn't have gone to Ochobu or someone and gotten a charm? But nawat had one...

the book itself said, "She couldn't help him with her sash, she was too busy taking off his belt" (paraphrase) She wanted to be with him. She woulnd't get pregnant, and they both managed to not let it distract them.

27/female/Toronto

For all the best relationship advice, from flirting to kissing to gettin' physical to dumping... see it at all www.therfs.com

I felt you were very clear on the situation. I think, perhaps, that sometimes it is harder to understand Nawat and Aly's predicament when you've never enountered anything like it. For younger women (and men) who have been told, over and over, "No means no, and men should respect that!" (which it does, and they should) it can be hard to differentiate between characters who are saying "Not now because I'm not ready" and characters who are saying "Not now because I'm busy".

Just my three cents. <=)

And by the way, I love crows- smart, funny, and handsome, just like my ideal mate. I consider them my good-omen birds. I was delighted you made them such an integeral part of this storyline. ^_^

Was I the first?

I like to think I'm the original Aly/Nawat basher since no one seemed to dislike them in TC and they already drove me up the wall then.

Luv, Bec

"It actually DOES say "Adam and Steve," that's what you get for reading the translation." ~God

you did a wonderful job Tammy.

I saw the whole thing through. Your right if Aly really objected he wouldn't have walked out of her office unhurt. Shes definitly a willful girl, though I agree with another post to I was a bit dissapointed of his long absense.

If you've a story, make sure it's a whole one, with details close to hand. It's the difference between a successful lie and getting caught- From Tricksters Choice

I actually really like Nawat, and I understand what Tammy was saying in her post. But in TQ, it comes off like he was pushing too hard. He barely gave Aly time to think and decide, and it would have been important to me to see her taking a breath and making an active decision. (Though that might have been what happened--I already lent my book out, so I can't go check.)

--Sahara

Actually, I think Tammy handled the sexual aspect of their relationship quite well. It was mature and forthright, because hey, let's face it, sex happens. It's just part of life.

My problem with the relationship is that while I like Aly and I love Nawat, I just don't like them together, particularly not when Taybur enters the scene. It's rather strange, because up until now I've always agreed with the main character's final choice when it comes to romance. God knows I love George to death, and Daine/Numair is as comforting to me as Oreos and milk. I especially love that Kel's ending is ambiguous; who says you need to be with a guy to be completely happy?

*shrugs* I just think that Aly and Taybur have such awesome chemistry and that's who I would choose. Then again, I'm not Aly, and it could have been worse.

I think the problem with Aly/Taybur is that they met too late... she was already desperately in love with Nawat.

If they'd met before she was desperately in love with Nawat things may have been different don't you think?

Later Days.
D.J.

| Dyslexic | LJ | Resident Jock |

  

:D They did seem to have some good chemistry, but, as Sarah has said, Aly and Nawat were already together.

*ponders a Dove/Taybur relationship* That could work.

Just Finished: Vacations From Hell by Libba Bray, etc.
Currently Reading: The Singing by Alison Croggon

Novel Count for 2010: 26

Personally I can see Dove marrying Ferdy since he's a member of the Luarian nobility that Dove is going to piss off.

But that's just me.

Later Days.
D.J.

| Dyslexic | LJ | Resident Jock |

  

but Ew... Ferdy was such an ass...

27/female/Toronto

For all the best relationship advice, from flirting to kissing to gettin' physical to dumping... see it at all www.therfs.com

He was. I really didn't like him.

Just Finished: Vacations From Hell by Libba Bray, etc.
Currently Reading: The Singing by Alison Croggon

Novel Count for 2010: 26

But that part is real life. There ARE guys out there with whom you have awesome chemistry. Multiple guys. And picking one and being really really content with that choice doesn't mean you stop noticing. You flirt, and carefully check to make sure that he doesn't take it any more seriously than you do. Because if he does you can't play that game any more.

Married isn't blind.

Kit

Definitely not blind!

Tammy

“No person is your friend who demands your silence.”
Alice Walker

I read this part at 10 last night, and it made me so happy and giddy that I had to stuff my head in my pillow to keep from waking the entire house. My friend has yet to read the book, and she was recently skimming through it at school, looking for Nawat parts. I told her he isn't in most of it, and she got really upset, then this morning I told her he comes back. I said something happens that hasn't happened to a main character since Alanna's books, and she guessed right away. I was glad it happened. Nawat's a good guy.

I don't mean to contradict you or anything in your rant, but I actually liked Nawat better in the second book. In TC, the whole ooh-lets-eat-bugs-and-mate-feed thing got me *really* annoyed. I liked him better as a man. A real man, not a crow-man.



Am I the only one who thinks Nawat reminds me of Numair?

Thanks, Krisian!

  

Actually if you take time to think about it...it wasn't rushed. They had been toghether for about a year. They were both thinking about it, it even mentions sometimes they almost got carried away and had sex...but stopped before it happened. So its not like it comes out of the blue...

Also a lot of the book they were both trying to figure out who they were. By this time they had a pretty good handle on it. I think some people got the wrong impression when Nawat said he was a man. Not like grunt bang chest me dominant species man. I think he meant human. Such as I have found my humanity, before he didn't have the innate part of us that makes us human and capable of soooo many emotions. Yeah he loved/liked aly but crows love/like too. He made human bonds and saw death, and hope, and courage.

So think about it, HE wasn't ready and neither was she. But now they were both ready. she just wanted the charm so she wouldn't have kids. I do believe she was delighted and amused that he actually had a charm.

Well atleast thats how I interpreted it. i could be way off base. But I got it, I liked it. they are good together.

She gets pregnant!!!

she gets pregnant AFTER they get married. she simply didn't want children before things were settled and Dove was queen. She got pregnant like, MONTHS after. When, after marriage, I assume she took off the charm. Her family (the delegation) left around March/April. Dove was crowned ~October. She first slept with Nawat... oh, I'm guessing August or so. Maybe earlier. I think the solar eclipse/revolution was August. Thus she would have been sleeping wtih Nawat in July or so.


Were the Tortall books always in the Roman calendar? i.e. January, June, Spetember and such? Or were they, at one point, in named months like "Blood Moon" and "Harvest moon" like the Circle world?

27/female/Toronto

For all the best relationship advice, from flirting to kissing to gettin' physical to dumping... see it at all www.therfs.com

Actually, when did they get married? She was already showing in April, which means she was a few months along. Alan was sent to tell the delegation to come home and to see his sister's wedding, so I was under the impression that they had gotten married rather recently. I don't think that Alan's knight-master would have let him leave for very long.

"I am too excellent to be full of myself." ~Tamora Pierce
"It will be a lovely tale," Aly replied, her voice sweet. "Some parts may even be true."
Fesgao: "I wonder what happens now. Will your father spank you for playing with the neighbors?

I wonder though how they decided to have kids. I can definitely see them wanting to get married right away, but it surprised me that they decided to have kids right away. Clearly, Nawat wanted "nestlings", but I thought Aly would want to spend more time settling things down on the job and in the queendom before she started a family. I wonder how Nawat convinced her.

-sahara

heh... I just wonder if their kid will have the ability to turn into a crow.

27/female/Toronto

For all the best relationship advice, from flirting to kissing to gettin' physical to dumping... see it at all www.therfs.com

Actually, a lot of couples start their families when they tie the knot. It's only really been in our time in our world that we've had ways to put off having kids once we're married and clearly having sex.

Tammy

“No person is your friend who demands your silence.”
Alice Walker

They were using the Roman calendar (which I assume they don't call the Roman calendar there) in The Immortals, as far as I can remember. Actually, I also remember a passage in ITHotG when it says Jonathan's birthday is in August. So yeah, throughout the books they used that calendar. I suppose the Circle books don't because Tammy realised by that point that they wouldn't HAVE Roman months in her made-up worlds, but it was too late to change it in Tortall.

Just Finished: Vacations From Hell by Libba Bray, etc.
Currently Reading: The Singing by Alison Croggon

Novel Count for 2010: 26

The Blood/Harvest/Seed Moon calendar is the Circle--Roman calendar has always been Tortall's, though if I'd had a lick of sense, or been less lazy, I would have created one for them, too.

Tammy

“No person is your friend who demands your silence.”
Alice Walker

I won't get into it, but I hate both Nawat and Aly as people, and I hate them together as well. For so many reasons. I hate them more than I hate Liam, which is saying something. And your post is nothing compared to how I reacted after reading TQ.

Luv, Bec

"It actually DOES say "Adam and Steve," that's what you get for reading the translation." ~God

yeah i understood how it worked out but i see how people can be annoyed about it.
she was just busy at the time is all...she did want it.